Talk:Universal prevenient grace
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The article seems fair to me, as it's stated up front that it is generally an Arminian/Methodist doctrine stemming from the theological perspective of John Wesley. There's also a section in the article dealing with opposition to the doctrine, which anyone can certainly edit. KHM03 08:54, 9 Mar 2005 (EST)
- What perked my eyebrows up was the following:
- "Some Christians, particularly those who adhere to some form of Calvinism, have been uncomfortable with and critical of the idea of prevenient grace, which they misunderstand to be a modified form of Pelagianism. Wesley and his followers have defended the doctrine, however, by adhering strongly to the notion of human sin and total depravity (which Wesley defined as a complete corruption of our moral nature), stating that humans are incapable by themselves to respond to God's salvific offer, and are only able to do so by the grace by which God enables us, prevenient grace."
- Wesley claimed that he was misunderstood, claimed that it wasn't a modified form of Pelagianism, and he claimed that he adhered strongly to total depravity, but the Reformed community still to this day levels the same accusations. Text like this needs to be "owned" by Wesley with words like asserted, claimed, argued for, or according to, etc., in order for it not to make implicit assertions about the validity of Wesley's rejoinders. Grace and peace. -Aaronshaf 12:00, 9 Mar 2005 (EST)
I'm having a difficult time seeing how those verses support this idea. Are these one's Wesley quoted? Or are these ones that someone thinks helps support prevenient grace? Although I do not adhere to this view, I know there are many others (not off the top of my head) that are much better and have been used to support this idea. I'm tempted to delete those verses, but I would rather allow someone to add some brief commentary as to how each verse/passage supports prevenient grace. - JordanBarrett 10:26, 9 Aug 2005
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Conforming to writing guide
Please refer to my edits under objections as an example of conforming a text to the writing guide, i.e. making it assertive of the statement of faith and general Reformed Chrsitianity. Thanks! -Aaronshaf 17:57, 6 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Clean-up
I took the liberty of removing the clean-up banner. There have been numerous edits which (I think) successfully re-oreinted the clear perspective of the article (which was originally imported from Wikipedia). There may still be some things that need to be done -- e.g. with the Scripture quotes. But in general, I think it is looking pretty good. If I'm off base here, let's discuss. Thanks, Gomarus 09:01, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Scriptures cited in support
It would be helpful to have some commentary, or at least a summary of common Wesleyan commentary, on these passages. As has been discussed, simply referencing the verse is unhelpful, since, in what seems like a common opinion here, the verses themselves don't seem to support UPG prima facie. But if you can find corresponding commentary, please include it. -Aaronshaf 14:59, 5 January 2006 (EST)
A thought
While its adherents appeal to some scripture for their view, it seems as though UPG really comes as a sort of conclusion from the following premises:
- People must always have libertarian free will.
- God will do whatever it takes to see to this.
- God loves everyone equally.
- Not everyone seems utterly evil (an observation that Calvinists use regarding common grace).
Anyways, just a thought. -Aaronshaf 15:10, 5 January 2006 (EST)
