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The paragraph on doctrine is not in conformity with Westminster Standards which say:

When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil. (WC IX:iv)

And the Canons of Dort say as much when they teach that God does not work faith in fallen man mechanicaly like a billiard ball striking another but organicaly. The statment that says that "Those who obtain salvation do so, not by their own free will, but because of the sovereign discriminating grace of God." is only half true. In Reformed Theology salvation is monergistic (from one source alone) coming from the regeneration, the new birth of the Holy Spirit. But regeneration is the giving of a new heart of flesh replacing an old heart of stone. Then one has miraculaously been given the ability to respond willfully and freely to the loving and Effectual Call.

Furthermore, before the heart is regenerated by the Holy Spirit fallen man is fully capable of resisting God and the Bible is full of such instances. John Piper says that at a certain point God simply refuses to be resisted any longer. He then send the Holy Spirit to breath new life into sinnful man.

In this sense grace is "irresitable" because once God has determined that he will not be resisted any longer, he causes the person to be "born from above" or regenerated. This is an appropriet metephor because each person born of the flesh is of course brought into the world both without their consent and irresitably. By this I mean that no matter how much the child in the womb wishes to remain where it is, the child will be born anyway.

In another more ultimate and final sense God determined he would not be resisted from before all worlds with his eternal decree of election.

My point is that, 1) of course grace is irresitable in an ultimate sense but 2) God has chosen to allow his eternal decrees to "fall out according to second causes" such as the formal or efficient cause of human fee will which 3) Reformed theology affirms is given by the Holy Spirit alone. Lastly, 4) God's call is a call of love and affection not a manipulative forcing, that irrestibly draws sinners to himself, because who could with eye wide open resist such a wonderful and mighty God and beautiful salvation.--Ryan Close 17:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ryan, some of what you say is true. And I think I see your point. God's decrees do come about through second causes. But the efficient cause here is not man's free will but the regenerating work of the Spirit. The regenerate man invariably and willingly believes because of his new nature. In my understanding, the Reformed position does not regard faith as a condition left to man, or the efficient cause of salvation; as J. Gresham Machen said, one is not saved on account of faith, but through faith. Faith is intrinsic to salvation.

If you would like to rework the subject paragraph, please feel free to do so. I agree that some rewording would be helpful. I suggest you do it here on the TALK page as a "proposed" re-write. Then we can get feedback and a concensus. Thanks for your interest. Jim Ellis 19:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you are right. I am not exactly straight on the different kind of causes and I like your clarification. Machen aught to be brought up as a source. I certainly want to bring in source material including support from the confessions, especial Dort, and perhaps even Blessed Calvin and Blessed Augustine to show a doctrinal continuity with the Nicene Church. I will try to write it this weekend. --Ryan Close 18:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)